Debra: I'm very interested in your journey through Scientology What was the idealism that attracted you to Scientology. Because when I spoke with people that were attracted to Jim Jones it was not the personality it was the ideals and the climate of the time and kind of like the social revolution of the time. And I learned a lot about what attracted people to certain movements. I'm wondering if your attraction to Scientology was it just a very innocent stumbling into or was there something bigger you were looking for to get out of it?
Jerry: That's a good question. I think there were a lot of factors. My dad was a Mason. And I don't know very much about the Masons, but it seems like there's some mystical ideas about it. So, my dad has had a few mystical ideas. Although they didn't seem mystical as far as I was concerned. There were things. He was a country boy he grew up in New Mexico was born in a little town maybe I don't know with two or three hundred people, if that many. He thought that if he would plant crops by the moon, whatever the moon was, and you would know there would be a lot of activities that would be done with the land or with animals and farm animals. According to the science of astrology and whatnot and he did believe in astrology that was something that he and I grew up with that sort of thing.
In the 70s. I was really interested in philosophy. I met a lady who told me that she had gotten out of her body. She was reading a book called Psycho-Cybernetics. She said that she went to bed one night when she was sleeping and the next thing she knew she was out of her body she was with everybody and watching it. Really scared. And it happened again the next night. She told me, and she told her mom. She said, "mom come and watch me, so I don't die or something." She was reading the book Psycho-Cybernetics and she said to me, "I think you might be interested in this book" so I started reading. And it was an interesting book I don't remember that much about it. It was certainly interesting as far as a spiritual quest or spiritual journey.
I had a friend of mine who would talk about these topics. He told me “Jerry you should go down there and talk to those Scientologists.” There's a place downtown in El Paso called 'Narconon' and you should go to L.A. those guys are all Scientologists, and they kind of think like you do and you will get along well you should go down there. If you go in there they will try to sell you on the idea of being one of them he says. Just don't buy into it too quickly make him work for it. Ask them questions and don't just jump into it. So, I said well this sounds good. And one day maybe I'll go down there. One Saturday morning. I was full of energy and I didn't really have anything to do. I was between jobs so I thought would it be something exciting something I've never done before. I was 29 years old and I think I'll hitchhike to LA, I've always wanted to go to California. I have never hitchhiked or been to California. I think I'll hitchhike to LA.
So, when I get back to El Paso I think I'll stop by and see those guys in Narconon. So when I went to LA, I went back to Narconon and I walked in the door. Figuring I would probably join staff and work there because they had told me already that if there were certain things that you could get if you joined staff they would give you. What they called their training class and I knew enough about it too know that I could just get continuing education, without having to pay for it, and for money. I could just give them my time instead.
So, they started telling me all these things. I have a lot of questions about life in general I wanted to know things like: What is the human spirit capable of? Is there such a thing as clairvoyance? Can it be taught? Does some people have that as a special power? Or does nobody have it? What is it? Can you get out of your body? Is your soul separate from your body? Can somebody get out of their body?
Debra: So, you were really searching for metaphysical answers. You were kind of soul-searching?
Jerry: I wanted to know what are people capable of? What is humanity capable of? And I didn't know. And of course, they told me "oh keyholes" they were secret. But too answer all these questions and give you all these powers, come with me, and gullible me I believed them.
Debra: Back then there was nobody exposing Scientology so to you it was just a group of seekers and people with the same type of questions. Now you have the internet and you have ways to find out about anything or anybody else.
Jerry: So I went in there with the idea that I was probably doing staff or something I could join a one year or a two-and-a-half-year contract or a five year contract. I thought. Too long. Just go for a one-year contract. So, I did.
Debra: When you say you signed a one-year contract. I'm thinking there's a literal contract put in front of you is that what it is?
Jerry: Oh yeah.
Debra: So, you literally sign a contract. If you were to break the contract what would happen to you? Like in 6 months if you just said this isn't for me. Back then. what would have happened I think ow probably there would be some repercussions.
Jerry: The same repercussions as there are now. This is in "74" Hubbard had those policies. In fact, back then. it really didn't go into the repercussions. It was just one of the things in service, that I will follow the policies of the organization. But not being not having not ever been in the organization had no idea what the policies were. Good point. I don't know if you've ever seen all that stuff that was written but he has volumes seven or eight volumes that are called “the volumes” and that tells you how to run the organization so those volumes are probably about three maybe three and a half feet high!
Debra: Fascinating!
Jerry: So that's how many books there are that have policies within its policies. There's all sorts of volumes they have up They have 'bulletins' things that have the technical training in them. But as for policies that means there's a whole lot of policies.There is no way that anybody that's been in Scientology a long time and can study all that policy but even after you have studied it there's still stuff that you don't know about.
Debra: So you signed a contract first to get some education. So, I'm assuming that you're staying at the compound or staying on their property. So what were your days like? Afterwards. I'm thinking there's huge changes in your routine.
Jerry: I had an interesting introduction to it because I didn't know anything about it. And the first thing they wanted to do was put me on a course called a 'communication course' that was just that full time. I worked from eight in the morning or nine in the morning to at least five or six o'clock at night. Then I came back at 7 and worked, until. 10:00. P.M. I didn't realize they were doing that and that's what they did. You know when I signed the contract I didn't know, that's what they were doing. So, I was on courses from nine o'clock in the morning till probably 10:30 at night.
Debra: So you were you were just studying? You said you were in "communication" What did they have you do exactly?
Jerry: I don't know if you're familiar with Scientology what they call " training routines" are basically hypnotic chants inducing techniques. And they teach you how to function as a person while at the same time going into a trance state. Because they don't tell you that.
Debra: I'm thinking there's probably going to be some readers, that maybe aren't following Leah's show. Maybe hearing first hand for the first time. So if I asked you to elaborate I'm just trying to help the readers keep course with your experience of Scientology.
Jerry: I can go on for hours.
Debra: I know. I could imagine! What came after that?
Jerry: Immediately I started that evening. finished each course and they put me in more advanced courses. And it just worked out that way. They had some students who came in and they needed somebody to pair them up and I'd just be available to do that. So that was my next action,anyway although it probably would have been months before I would have done that. And that course could have taken me months to do, and I finished that course and I was posted as an employee. Then employee courses too. I had to then take courses to be a staff member and some basic policy. What is always expected of a staff member and could and couldn't do, what I was expected to do. It took 3 4 weeks.
And then the executive director from Narconan of the United States came into El Paso one day and I'm not sure of what he did since he was more with the honchos. Really nice guy. he was a retired Lieutenant Colonel fighter pilot, Marine. And he was also in Scientology what was known as a "class A" which were highly recognized positions highly accomplished. He said he can read minds and all these things Scientologists are supposed to do. At the same time, he was a nice guy, warm and personal. Everybody was like awestruck at the time. So, he knew his way around. He told me "we've got room to practice playing if you guys want to get some additional training-- we've got to take somebody back” And they asked me “well what are your thoughts?” I have only been in 3 months if not even that long, I shouldn't be going to train with these people when there are people that have been there lot longer than me, they should be going. "No, you should go you should go" So I went of training. The first four or five months in full time training. A lot of indoctrination that most people don't get. I felt really lucky to be able to go through all of that. At the same time, It took me a long time to get to college.
Debra: Ok. Was there a conflict between secular college and Scientology?
Jerry: I'm not going to pay any attention to everything I've learned and just toss it all aside because I think this is going to be more important and more relevant than anything else I've ever done. Took me a long time, to be able to incorporate my previous education of 29 years slipped into Scientology and put them together where they could be integrated into one way of thinking rather than "here is one way of thinking and split off into a different way of thinking."
Debra: Or were you maybe just kind of cherry picking what you could apply towards?
Jerry: If there were strain I didn't see it.
Debra: Was there anything that was disturbing you about being in Scientology that was opening your eyes, in which were just kind of cringing or doubting yourself? Was there ever any of that or was it just kind of a smooth transition out of Scientology?
Jerry: We'll I was in at 1974. by the 1980's at that point it was a new regime that was taking over, Hubbard was getting crazier and crazier. At that point they had financed the police.
Debra: Even the police!
Jerry: Most people couldn't afford Scientology anyway. And it got to the point that by the time 1982 came around I just couldn't afford it anymore. I just couldn't afford it anymore. It was disappointing. To say the least and maddening to say the most. You know you had this thing that was making you feel good but you weren't good enough to pay for it. So. Everything is always your responsibility everything is always your fault. Anything that bad happens it's you that is responsible for it. They run a guilt trip on you really well. So, I didn't do anything for a couple of years. But by that time, they were doing some rotten things to people in general and a lot of people were just leaving Scientology in droves. And there were a lot of people who had been in for a long time, people very accomplished in Scientology. If you don't tow the line you will be doomed forever. Not just this life they believe it's lifetime after lifetime after lifetime.
Debra: I've heard reports of Scientology harassing people? Was something done to you as well? When you left the Scientology in terms of harassment?
Jerry: I'm not one of the guys that they are going to get money out of, so they don't bother.
Debra: I have seen what they've done on the Internet with Leah's show and they've put all the cast members on a website and the supposedly bad past records online exposes. Terrible.
Jerry: These are two different issues, one is what will they do if they want you to give to them, and the other what will they do if you criticize them? They are very sensitive to criticism which of course is just the opposite of what they tell you too your face. They have what they call counseling or auditing. It's one of the benefits of is when you reach those great 0123 and 4 levels. The ability to communicate to anyone at any time on any subject. Not only can you communicate but you can receive communication from anyone. At any time. So, you can allow others to communicate to anyone at any time on any subject. And you can communicate to yourself at any time on any ubject. Gives you the impression that people can say whatever they want to say, and no one will get upset about it. That's just not the case because if you want to say, "Scientology kills" They go nuts. For decades going back in the 60s. They have been doing all kinds of covert type of smearing campaigns and tactics and. Absolutely. they started smearing Paulette Cooper back in the 70s. They tried to set her up about a bomb threat.
Debra: I heard about her. They said that she threatened them.
Jerry: Of course, is not true. And what they did is they wrote a letter on her stationery and had a guy a Scientologist portray himself as somebody else who became her boyfriend and lived with her and he got her thumb print on her stationary.
Debra: That was a quite an elaborate scheme too for her. Incredible. Now as you were coming out of Scientology what led you more into anti cult work because it seemed like you were raising awareness and you worked as a kind of like an anti-cult activist?
Jerry: Well that's a long story. I left in 1984, I knew I was never going back. There were a lot of really bad people in Scientology who had left. So. For me it was the personal gain of being able to get what I wanted in my life. I was happy. I was not an activist I wasn't in Scientology when I left. I couldn't afford it anymore. Because I can't afford a Rolls Royce. I'm not upset about it. I just don't have one.
Debra: It seems like at one point you realized you were in a cult. You seemed to get more vocal and seemed to be involved in intervention. How did that come about because it seemed like you were just putting it behind you as you couldn't afford it. You saw some. really shady things they've done and you are kind of glad they were behind you and you had a sense of self-awareness.
Jerry: I met Hanna in 1984. Before we started dating we saw each other all the time and we had dinner with friends and whatnots. The couples that would go out to dinner and she would call me and say "hey I'm having dinner with these couples would you come?' And then she seemed like a really nice lady.
Debra: Yeah. Well. you hung onto her!
Jerry: When I first met Hana, I told her that she and I were to be friends for a long time. I just knew that. I was going to choose this person, and that she was the same forever and that was in June in 84. We started dating in November for although we had dinner engagements with other people, but we weren't romantic, and we were just friends. We were married in 86. There was enough information to get it come out about Scientology. I had figured out there was there was a lot of things going on and a lot of us didn't know about! There were court proceedings. I knew that, many were being tried and going to prison or had gone to prison. Along with other people. They were sent to prison. I knew that they had been involved in some pretty shady dealings and I was just really glad not to be part of that anymore. There was a lady named, Valerie Stansfield who was an ex Scientologist. She called me up one day she said Jerry there's an attorney from Boston named Michael Flynn. He's been suing Scientology and we want to sue Scientology in a class action suit and we want you to be part of this. My husband and I want to be part of it. And there's another couple that wants to be part of it and we want you to be part of it. I said, you don't want me but you're being polite. Hana is who you really want, Michael Fraser gave us a lot of information and his son started telling us a lot of things about Scientology and him leaving Scientology. So, I began to find out how rotten Scientology is, you begin to see the whole picture.
Debra: So, did Hana become part of a class action suit?
Jerry: We became the steering committee for that.
Debra: So that's kind of when it started to curve a bit where you were starting to be open on their harmful practices?
Jerry: Yeah at that point I saw how rotten and evil it was. I can't believe I was part of this. There is just were so many restrictions as a Scientologist you couldn't talk too normal people. There were all these labels put on things and really quick answers to complicated problems.Techniques use to give you a quick answer so that you wouldn't think about it any further. There's always a responsibility if anything happened to you that was always your fault, but if anything happened to you that was good, then Scientology took credit for it.
Debra: What happened with the lawsuit?
Jerry: It never got off the ground. Attorneys had written I think six different amendments to the lawsuit. The judge never accepted it.
Debra: Did you find in your experiences that most people drifted out of Scientology on their own or were there ever any cases you heard about where people were deprogrammed out of Scientology?
Jerry: I had heard of this thing called deprogramming. When I was in Scientology. My idea of the deprogramming was that somebody comes suddenly and grabs you.
Debra: So, did you did you officially become a counselor. Along with Hana? Was that something that was part of your life for a while?
Jerry: That was a big part of our life for a while.
Debra: Were you mainly involved in exit counseling with just people in Scientology?
Jerry: We specialize in Scientology. First of all, Hana is really a very powerful person. And she worked directly under Hubbard for a number of years. She was an accomplished person in Scientology. She has a strong personality and was very well known. A lot of people wanted to be like Hana so they joined Scientology. they thought well if that's the kind of person you can be through Scientology, then that's what I want to be. It's just her personality. So, this one couple decided they wanted us to work with their son and we did. And we were successful you know we didn't know what we were doing we had not done it before. We've only talked to people who wanted to talk us and stuff that that they could never talk about to somebody. We surprised them and said we were talking about Scientology and you should get out. Never done that. We had never met an exit counselor or had a clue what we were doing.You were just talking to people and that's all there was. You knew the language you knew. you knew what they were feeling, so they knew you were legit. About 75 percent were successful.Takes a long time to get that crap out of your head. I've been out for over 30 years.
Debra: Now I heard that Hana is working on a book and I'm excited to hear that! Is there any further news?
Jerry: Something that she's wanted to do for a very long time. She's a writer. So it's been very therapeutic for her to go through lot of things out by writing this book. I told her I don't know how you can put this in one book. There's enough material for six.
Debra: We would love to buy all six volumes! Is there anything you want to add to that view in terms of. How do you feel things are going now for the cult of Scientology? Do you feel like it's going downhill very fast? Do you feel there's still just a lot more to tackle?
Jerry: I would think this is only my opinion. I would think that Miscavige has money stashed everywhere, so that he is really taken care of even if nobody else has money. If it ever comes to that. I mean that's what it looks like to me as an outsider it looks bad in my opinion which is great. Oh well, time will tell and maybe we will have another season 3 to celebrate. That would be nice.
Debra: All we can do is hope that the awareness escalates. I will say that I've noticed a huge awareness in cults. Now it's synonymous with Scientology even where I work at, if you mention the word "cult" the first thing that will come out of someone's is oh that's like that "Scientology" show.
Jerry: Yeah, it used to be "cults like the moonies" haha.
Debra: I hope the show continues and I hope they have a variety of experts on! I'd love to see. Dr. Cathleen Mann on the show. And I would love to see her expertise on this. I would love to see all kinds of different variances to the show. And even though this rumor is you know they're not yet sure of a season 3 or whatnot. I really feel that there will be because it's such a popular show.
Jerry: Why would they give up now?
Debra: It was wonderful to speak with you Jerry Whitfield! Thank-you!
Jerry: That's a good question. I think there were a lot of factors. My dad was a Mason. And I don't know very much about the Masons, but it seems like there's some mystical ideas about it. So, my dad has had a few mystical ideas. Although they didn't seem mystical as far as I was concerned. There were things. He was a country boy he grew up in New Mexico was born in a little town maybe I don't know with two or three hundred people, if that many. He thought that if he would plant crops by the moon, whatever the moon was, and you would know there would be a lot of activities that would be done with the land or with animals and farm animals. According to the science of astrology and whatnot and he did believe in astrology that was something that he and I grew up with that sort of thing.
In the 70s. I was really interested in philosophy. I met a lady who told me that she had gotten out of her body. She was reading a book called Psycho-Cybernetics. She said that she went to bed one night when she was sleeping and the next thing she knew she was out of her body she was with everybody and watching it. Really scared. And it happened again the next night. She told me, and she told her mom. She said, "mom come and watch me, so I don't die or something." She was reading the book Psycho-Cybernetics and she said to me, "I think you might be interested in this book" so I started reading. And it was an interesting book I don't remember that much about it. It was certainly interesting as far as a spiritual quest or spiritual journey.
I had a friend of mine who would talk about these topics. He told me “Jerry you should go down there and talk to those Scientologists.” There's a place downtown in El Paso called 'Narconon' and you should go to L.A. those guys are all Scientologists, and they kind of think like you do and you will get along well you should go down there. If you go in there they will try to sell you on the idea of being one of them he says. Just don't buy into it too quickly make him work for it. Ask them questions and don't just jump into it. So, I said well this sounds good. And one day maybe I'll go down there. One Saturday morning. I was full of energy and I didn't really have anything to do. I was between jobs so I thought would it be something exciting something I've never done before. I was 29 years old and I think I'll hitchhike to LA, I've always wanted to go to California. I have never hitchhiked or been to California. I think I'll hitchhike to LA.
So, when I get back to El Paso I think I'll stop by and see those guys in Narconon. So when I went to LA, I went back to Narconon and I walked in the door. Figuring I would probably join staff and work there because they had told me already that if there were certain things that you could get if you joined staff they would give you. What they called their training class and I knew enough about it too know that I could just get continuing education, without having to pay for it, and for money. I could just give them my time instead.
So, they started telling me all these things. I have a lot of questions about life in general I wanted to know things like: What is the human spirit capable of? Is there such a thing as clairvoyance? Can it be taught? Does some people have that as a special power? Or does nobody have it? What is it? Can you get out of your body? Is your soul separate from your body? Can somebody get out of their body?
Debra: So, you were really searching for metaphysical answers. You were kind of soul-searching?
Jerry: I wanted to know what are people capable of? What is humanity capable of? And I didn't know. And of course, they told me "oh keyholes" they were secret. But too answer all these questions and give you all these powers, come with me, and gullible me I believed them.
Debra: Back then there was nobody exposing Scientology so to you it was just a group of seekers and people with the same type of questions. Now you have the internet and you have ways to find out about anything or anybody else.
Jerry: So I went in there with the idea that I was probably doing staff or something I could join a one year or a two-and-a-half-year contract or a five year contract. I thought. Too long. Just go for a one-year contract. So, I did.
Debra: When you say you signed a one-year contract. I'm thinking there's a literal contract put in front of you is that what it is?
Jerry: Oh yeah.
Debra: So, you literally sign a contract. If you were to break the contract what would happen to you? Like in 6 months if you just said this isn't for me. Back then. what would have happened I think ow probably there would be some repercussions.
Jerry: The same repercussions as there are now. This is in "74" Hubbard had those policies. In fact, back then. it really didn't go into the repercussions. It was just one of the things in service, that I will follow the policies of the organization. But not being not having not ever been in the organization had no idea what the policies were. Good point. I don't know if you've ever seen all that stuff that was written but he has volumes seven or eight volumes that are called “the volumes” and that tells you how to run the organization so those volumes are probably about three maybe three and a half feet high!
Debra: Fascinating!
Jerry: So that's how many books there are that have policies within its policies. There's all sorts of volumes they have up They have 'bulletins' things that have the technical training in them. But as for policies that means there's a whole lot of policies.There is no way that anybody that's been in Scientology a long time and can study all that policy but even after you have studied it there's still stuff that you don't know about.
Debra: So you signed a contract first to get some education. So, I'm assuming that you're staying at the compound or staying on their property. So what were your days like? Afterwards. I'm thinking there's huge changes in your routine.
Jerry: I had an interesting introduction to it because I didn't know anything about it. And the first thing they wanted to do was put me on a course called a 'communication course' that was just that full time. I worked from eight in the morning or nine in the morning to at least five or six o'clock at night. Then I came back at 7 and worked, until. 10:00. P.M. I didn't realize they were doing that and that's what they did. You know when I signed the contract I didn't know, that's what they were doing. So, I was on courses from nine o'clock in the morning till probably 10:30 at night.
Debra: So you were you were just studying? You said you were in "communication" What did they have you do exactly?
Jerry: I don't know if you're familiar with Scientology what they call " training routines" are basically hypnotic chants inducing techniques. And they teach you how to function as a person while at the same time going into a trance state. Because they don't tell you that.
Debra: I'm thinking there's probably going to be some readers, that maybe aren't following Leah's show. Maybe hearing first hand for the first time. So if I asked you to elaborate I'm just trying to help the readers keep course with your experience of Scientology.
Jerry: I can go on for hours.
Debra: I know. I could imagine! What came after that?
Jerry: Immediately I started that evening. finished each course and they put me in more advanced courses. And it just worked out that way. They had some students who came in and they needed somebody to pair them up and I'd just be available to do that. So that was my next action,anyway although it probably would have been months before I would have done that. And that course could have taken me months to do, and I finished that course and I was posted as an employee. Then employee courses too. I had to then take courses to be a staff member and some basic policy. What is always expected of a staff member and could and couldn't do, what I was expected to do. It took 3 4 weeks.
And then the executive director from Narconan of the United States came into El Paso one day and I'm not sure of what he did since he was more with the honchos. Really nice guy. he was a retired Lieutenant Colonel fighter pilot, Marine. And he was also in Scientology what was known as a "class A" which were highly recognized positions highly accomplished. He said he can read minds and all these things Scientologists are supposed to do. At the same time, he was a nice guy, warm and personal. Everybody was like awestruck at the time. So, he knew his way around. He told me "we've got room to practice playing if you guys want to get some additional training-- we've got to take somebody back” And they asked me “well what are your thoughts?” I have only been in 3 months if not even that long, I shouldn't be going to train with these people when there are people that have been there lot longer than me, they should be going. "No, you should go you should go" So I went of training. The first four or five months in full time training. A lot of indoctrination that most people don't get. I felt really lucky to be able to go through all of that. At the same time, It took me a long time to get to college.
Debra: Ok. Was there a conflict between secular college and Scientology?
Jerry: I'm not going to pay any attention to everything I've learned and just toss it all aside because I think this is going to be more important and more relevant than anything else I've ever done. Took me a long time, to be able to incorporate my previous education of 29 years slipped into Scientology and put them together where they could be integrated into one way of thinking rather than "here is one way of thinking and split off into a different way of thinking."
Debra: Or were you maybe just kind of cherry picking what you could apply towards?
Jerry: If there were strain I didn't see it.
Debra: Was there anything that was disturbing you about being in Scientology that was opening your eyes, in which were just kind of cringing or doubting yourself? Was there ever any of that or was it just kind of a smooth transition out of Scientology?
Jerry: We'll I was in at 1974. by the 1980's at that point it was a new regime that was taking over, Hubbard was getting crazier and crazier. At that point they had financed the police.
Debra: Even the police!
Jerry: Most people couldn't afford Scientology anyway. And it got to the point that by the time 1982 came around I just couldn't afford it anymore. I just couldn't afford it anymore. It was disappointing. To say the least and maddening to say the most. You know you had this thing that was making you feel good but you weren't good enough to pay for it. So. Everything is always your responsibility everything is always your fault. Anything that bad happens it's you that is responsible for it. They run a guilt trip on you really well. So, I didn't do anything for a couple of years. But by that time, they were doing some rotten things to people in general and a lot of people were just leaving Scientology in droves. And there were a lot of people who had been in for a long time, people very accomplished in Scientology. If you don't tow the line you will be doomed forever. Not just this life they believe it's lifetime after lifetime after lifetime.
Debra: I've heard reports of Scientology harassing people? Was something done to you as well? When you left the Scientology in terms of harassment?
Jerry: I'm not one of the guys that they are going to get money out of, so they don't bother.
Debra: I have seen what they've done on the Internet with Leah's show and they've put all the cast members on a website and the supposedly bad past records online exposes. Terrible.
Jerry: These are two different issues, one is what will they do if they want you to give to them, and the other what will they do if you criticize them? They are very sensitive to criticism which of course is just the opposite of what they tell you too your face. They have what they call counseling or auditing. It's one of the benefits of is when you reach those great 0123 and 4 levels. The ability to communicate to anyone at any time on any subject. Not only can you communicate but you can receive communication from anyone. At any time. So, you can allow others to communicate to anyone at any time on any subject. And you can communicate to yourself at any time on any ubject. Gives you the impression that people can say whatever they want to say, and no one will get upset about it. That's just not the case because if you want to say, "Scientology kills" They go nuts. For decades going back in the 60s. They have been doing all kinds of covert type of smearing campaigns and tactics and. Absolutely. they started smearing Paulette Cooper back in the 70s. They tried to set her up about a bomb threat.
Debra: I heard about her. They said that she threatened them.
Jerry: Of course, is not true. And what they did is they wrote a letter on her stationery and had a guy a Scientologist portray himself as somebody else who became her boyfriend and lived with her and he got her thumb print on her stationary.
Debra: That was a quite an elaborate scheme too for her. Incredible. Now as you were coming out of Scientology what led you more into anti cult work because it seemed like you were raising awareness and you worked as a kind of like an anti-cult activist?
Jerry: Well that's a long story. I left in 1984, I knew I was never going back. There were a lot of really bad people in Scientology who had left. So. For me it was the personal gain of being able to get what I wanted in my life. I was happy. I was not an activist I wasn't in Scientology when I left. I couldn't afford it anymore. Because I can't afford a Rolls Royce. I'm not upset about it. I just don't have one.
Debra: It seems like at one point you realized you were in a cult. You seemed to get more vocal and seemed to be involved in intervention. How did that come about because it seemed like you were just putting it behind you as you couldn't afford it. You saw some. really shady things they've done and you are kind of glad they were behind you and you had a sense of self-awareness.
Jerry: I met Hanna in 1984. Before we started dating we saw each other all the time and we had dinner with friends and whatnots. The couples that would go out to dinner and she would call me and say "hey I'm having dinner with these couples would you come?' And then she seemed like a really nice lady.
Debra: Yeah. Well. you hung onto her!
Jerry: When I first met Hana, I told her that she and I were to be friends for a long time. I just knew that. I was going to choose this person, and that she was the same forever and that was in June in 84. We started dating in November for although we had dinner engagements with other people, but we weren't romantic, and we were just friends. We were married in 86. There was enough information to get it come out about Scientology. I had figured out there was there was a lot of things going on and a lot of us didn't know about! There were court proceedings. I knew that, many were being tried and going to prison or had gone to prison. Along with other people. They were sent to prison. I knew that they had been involved in some pretty shady dealings and I was just really glad not to be part of that anymore. There was a lady named, Valerie Stansfield who was an ex Scientologist. She called me up one day she said Jerry there's an attorney from Boston named Michael Flynn. He's been suing Scientology and we want to sue Scientology in a class action suit and we want you to be part of this. My husband and I want to be part of it. And there's another couple that wants to be part of it and we want you to be part of it. I said, you don't want me but you're being polite. Hana is who you really want, Michael Fraser gave us a lot of information and his son started telling us a lot of things about Scientology and him leaving Scientology. So, I began to find out how rotten Scientology is, you begin to see the whole picture.
Debra: So, did Hana become part of a class action suit?
Jerry: We became the steering committee for that.
Debra: So that's kind of when it started to curve a bit where you were starting to be open on their harmful practices?
Jerry: Yeah at that point I saw how rotten and evil it was. I can't believe I was part of this. There is just were so many restrictions as a Scientologist you couldn't talk too normal people. There were all these labels put on things and really quick answers to complicated problems.Techniques use to give you a quick answer so that you wouldn't think about it any further. There's always a responsibility if anything happened to you that was always your fault, but if anything happened to you that was good, then Scientology took credit for it.
Debra: What happened with the lawsuit?
Jerry: It never got off the ground. Attorneys had written I think six different amendments to the lawsuit. The judge never accepted it.
Debra: Did you find in your experiences that most people drifted out of Scientology on their own or were there ever any cases you heard about where people were deprogrammed out of Scientology?
Jerry: I had heard of this thing called deprogramming. When I was in Scientology. My idea of the deprogramming was that somebody comes suddenly and grabs you.
Debra: So, did you did you officially become a counselor. Along with Hana? Was that something that was part of your life for a while?
Jerry: That was a big part of our life for a while.
Debra: Were you mainly involved in exit counseling with just people in Scientology?
Jerry: We specialize in Scientology. First of all, Hana is really a very powerful person. And she worked directly under Hubbard for a number of years. She was an accomplished person in Scientology. She has a strong personality and was very well known. A lot of people wanted to be like Hana so they joined Scientology. they thought well if that's the kind of person you can be through Scientology, then that's what I want to be. It's just her personality. So, this one couple decided they wanted us to work with their son and we did. And we were successful you know we didn't know what we were doing we had not done it before. We've only talked to people who wanted to talk us and stuff that that they could never talk about to somebody. We surprised them and said we were talking about Scientology and you should get out. Never done that. We had never met an exit counselor or had a clue what we were doing.You were just talking to people and that's all there was. You knew the language you knew. you knew what they were feeling, so they knew you were legit. About 75 percent were successful.Takes a long time to get that crap out of your head. I've been out for over 30 years.
Debra: Now I heard that Hana is working on a book and I'm excited to hear that! Is there any further news?
Jerry: Something that she's wanted to do for a very long time. She's a writer. So it's been very therapeutic for her to go through lot of things out by writing this book. I told her I don't know how you can put this in one book. There's enough material for six.
Debra: We would love to buy all six volumes! Is there anything you want to add to that view in terms of. How do you feel things are going now for the cult of Scientology? Do you feel like it's going downhill very fast? Do you feel there's still just a lot more to tackle?
Jerry: I would think this is only my opinion. I would think that Miscavige has money stashed everywhere, so that he is really taken care of even if nobody else has money. If it ever comes to that. I mean that's what it looks like to me as an outsider it looks bad in my opinion which is great. Oh well, time will tell and maybe we will have another season 3 to celebrate. That would be nice.
Debra: All we can do is hope that the awareness escalates. I will say that I've noticed a huge awareness in cults. Now it's synonymous with Scientology even where I work at, if you mention the word "cult" the first thing that will come out of someone's is oh that's like that "Scientology" show.
Jerry: Yeah, it used to be "cults like the moonies" haha.
Debra: I hope the show continues and I hope they have a variety of experts on! I'd love to see. Dr. Cathleen Mann on the show. And I would love to see her expertise on this. I would love to see all kinds of different variances to the show. And even though this rumor is you know they're not yet sure of a season 3 or whatnot. I really feel that there will be because it's such a popular show.
Jerry: Why would they give up now?
Debra: It was wonderful to speak with you Jerry Whitfield! Thank-you!
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